Comments on: What can opinion polls tell us about well-being and revolution? Quite a lot, actually http://www.oxfamblogs.org/fp2p/?p=12048 duncan green poverty to power oxfam development Fri, 24 May 2013 18:19:18 -0500 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8 hourly 1 By: Sarah C. White http://www.oxfamblogs.org/fp2p/?p=12048&cpage=1#comment-259933 Sarah C. White Thu, 18 Oct 2012 14:02:51 +0000 http://www.oxfamblogs.org/fp2p/?p=12048#comment-259933 The difficulty with statistics such as these is that they abstract ‘the subjective’ from the context of the subjects themselves, so that the producers or consumers of research are left to supply a context or reading which makes sense to them. This is what explains, I think, the very different responses from Duncan and Caroline – they tell us more about Duncan and Caroline than about the people who replied to the Gallup surveys. There is much to be learnt from a focus on wellbeing, which reflects a broad tradition in development of seeking to go beyond the economic and to assert people’s own perspectives and action. It is important, however, that we guard against this new awareness of the subjective and personal being captured by highly quantitative, expert-driven, abstracting and reifying methodologies. Perhaps the most concerning aspect of this whole exchange is Duncan’s warning that – unless you are an ‘uber-geek’ – you should not even try to take Gallup on. The difficulty with statistics such as these is that they abstract ‘the subjective’ from the context of the subjects themselves, so that the producers or consumers of research are left to supply a context or reading which makes sense to them. This is what explains, I think, the very different responses from Duncan and Caroline – they tell us more about Duncan and Caroline than about the people who replied to the Gallup surveys. There is much to be learnt from a focus on wellbeing, which reflects a broad tradition in development of seeking to go beyond the economic and to assert people’s own perspectives and action. It is important, however, that we guard against this new awareness of the subjective and personal being captured by highly quantitative, expert-driven, abstracting and reifying methodologies. Perhaps the most concerning aspect of this whole exchange is Duncan’s warning that – unless you are an ‘uber-geek’ – you should not even try to take Gallup on.

]]> By: Michaela Raab http://www.oxfamblogs.org/fp2p/?p=12048&cpage=1#comment-259550 Michaela Raab Thu, 18 Oct 2012 08:18:39 +0000 http://www.oxfamblogs.org/fp2p/?p=12048#comment-259550 Fascinating figures indeed! But - as Caroline Sweetman says - the survey is all about perceptions, or rather, about what people are ready to share regarding their perceptions. I.e., The response reflects not only (and not necessarily) how people see things - which might already be quite different from how a more "external" observer would see them-, but also (or chiefly) how people think one should talk about one's perceptions (which causes what is known as the "social desirability bias" in research). That latter element varies enormously depending on the social context / country you're in. So maybe we don't need to worry or wonder too much about surveys that show us what people who live in vastly different contexts are ready to answer to the same questions... Fascinating figures indeed! But – as Caroline Sweetman says – the survey is all about perceptions, or rather, about what people are ready to share regarding their perceptions. I.e., The response reflects not only (and not necessarily) how people see things – which might already be quite different from how a more “external” observer would see them-, but also (or chiefly) how people think one should talk about one’s perceptions (which causes what is known as the “social desirability bias” in research). That latter element varies enormously depending on the social context / country you’re in. So maybe we don’t need to worry or wonder too much about surveys that show us what people who live in vastly different contexts are ready to answer to the same questions…

]]> By: Ken Smith http://www.oxfamblogs.org/fp2p/?p=12048&cpage=1#comment-258530 Ken Smith Tue, 16 Oct 2012 19:24:37 +0000 http://www.oxfamblogs.org/fp2p/?p=12048#comment-258530 Like a lot of counter-intuitive facts , it's maybe not so counter-intuitive when you examine it. I don't think these women are disatisfied with their lives and secretly hiding it from the researchers. They are content with their particular lives because the alternatives they see around them for a women in their societies are a 1000% times worse Like a lot of counter-intuitive facts , it’s maybe not so counter-intuitive when you examine it. I don’t think these women are disatisfied with their lives and secretly hiding it from the researchers. They are content with their particular lives because the alternatives they see around them for a women in their societies are a 1000% times worse

]]> By: terence http://www.oxfamblogs.org/fp2p/?p=12048&cpage=1#comment-257900 terence Tue, 16 Oct 2012 10:03:06 +0000 http://www.oxfamblogs.org/fp2p/?p=12048#comment-257900 <i>But when we get onto gender gaps, it gets much more interesting. The biggest gender gap, in terms of men reporting more positively than women are in Ukraine and Vietnam. The list of countries where women are significantly more positive about their lives than men is led by Qatar, Angola, South Korea and Iran.</i> Two quick thoughts: 1. I've always thought that nature of regime probably biases responses to these sorts of surveys to an extent. IIRC at the end of Afro-barometer polls, when people are asked who they think is behind the poll, despite being told at the beginning that polling is being done for and by an NGO, a significant number say 'the government'. So I would say it is possible that women are overstating their welfare in Iran and Qatar not because they're labouring under false conciousness but rather because they're being cautious in their answers and just what the reveal to who. 2. Within country gender gaps are interesting but I'd say that, ultimately, the most important ranking exercise is how well women feel vis a vis women in other countries, not vis a vis men in their own. But when we get onto gender gaps, it gets much more interesting. The biggest gender gap, in terms of men reporting more positively than women are in Ukraine and Vietnam. The list of countries where women are significantly more positive about their lives than men is led by Qatar, Angola, South Korea and Iran.

Two quick thoughts:

1. I’ve always thought that nature of regime probably biases responses to these sorts of surveys to an extent. IIRC at the end of Afro-barometer polls, when people are asked who they think is behind the poll, despite being told at the beginning that polling is being done for and by an NGO, a significant number say ‘the government’. So I would say it is possible that women are overstating their welfare in Iran and Qatar not because they’re labouring under false conciousness but rather because they’re being cautious in their answers and just what the reveal to who.

2. Within country gender gaps are interesting but I’d say that, ultimately, the most important ranking exercise is how well women feel vis a vis women in other countries, not vis a vis men in their own.

]]> By: Duncan http://www.oxfamblogs.org/fp2p/?p=12048&cpage=1#comment-257650 Duncan Mon, 15 Oct 2012 20:27:32 +0000 http://www.oxfamblogs.org/fp2p/?p=12048#comment-257650 Thanks Caroline, I totally agree on not being able to extrapolate any general conclusion. Did I say otherwise? But it should at least make us pause when, at least for me, I would not have guessed any of these countries would be at the top of this particular gender gap. But your point 3 worries me a bit. We've been over this ground before. While it's true that saying 'whatever people feel/say is a true picture of their lives' is unreliable because as you say, people form opinions and choices subject to constraints, I am equally uncomfortable with any kind of 'false consciousness' argument that dismisses those views too easily when they don't conform with our own. Slippery slope leading to the echo chamber. I won't respond on Malala Yousufzai, except to say that I don't like debating in that kind of way (shades of Godwin's Law) Thanks Caroline,
I totally agree on not being able to extrapolate any general conclusion. Did I say otherwise? But it should at least make us pause when, at least for me, I would not have guessed any of these countries would be at the top of this particular gender gap.
But your point 3 worries me a bit. We’ve been over this ground before. While it’s true that saying ‘whatever people feel/say is a true picture of their lives’ is unreliable because as you say, people form opinions and choices subject to constraints, I am equally uncomfortable with any kind of ‘false consciousness’ argument that dismisses those views too easily when they don’t conform with our own. Slippery slope leading to the echo chamber.
I won’t respond on Malala Yousufzai, except to say that I don’t like debating in that kind of way (shades of Godwin’s Law)

]]> By: Luis http://www.oxfamblogs.org/fp2p/?p=12048&cpage=1#comment-257407 Luis Mon, 15 Oct 2012 10:37:17 +0000 http://www.oxfamblogs.org/fp2p/?p=12048#comment-257407 Thanks Duncan for this. On South Korea, does the fact that, among OECD members, it has one of the lowest labour market´s participation rate for women aged 25-64 (below 65%) impacts the stats? And it was (is?) common for married women (who tended to stay home raising the children) to be the "financial manager" of the household giving them a certain financial power. And like in Japan, Korean single and working ladies save a lot of their income by continue to stay with their parents. Their income is instead used in whatever they want to buy. Married men need to support their families and single men to help their parents..... But Korea is changing fast so my views might be already old ones... Thanks Duncan for this.

On South Korea, does the fact that, among OECD members, it has one of the lowest labour market´s participation rate for women aged 25-64 (below 65%) impacts the stats?

And it was (is?) common for married women (who tended to stay home raising the children) to be the “financial manager” of the household giving them a certain financial power. And like in Japan, Korean single and working ladies save a lot of their income by continue to stay with their parents. Their income is instead used in whatever they want to buy.

Married men need to support their families and single men to help their parents….. But Korea is changing fast so my views might be already old ones…

]]> By: Caroline Sweetman http://www.oxfamblogs.org/fp2p/?p=12048&cpage=1#comment-257391 Caroline Sweetman Mon, 15 Oct 2012 09:32:10 +0000 http://www.oxfamblogs.org/fp2p/?p=12048#comment-257391 I'll confine myself to the gender/women's rights issues you raise. Extrapolating any general point here regarding the gender issues you raise isn't really possible. Why? 1. Quatar, Angloa, South Korea and Iran. Four countries with just so much in common for us to make generalised points about the status and condition of women. Not. 2. The idea that women's bodies are a battleground and the idea that we are sex objects either covered or uncovered is as old as feminism. It is really unbelievable that this is new to anyone. 3. Any rigorous and convincing research about wellbeing would be focusing on the difference between perceived and real wellbeing, especially for marginalised groups. If you want me to refer to clever men who people take notice of as a reference for this point, see Amartya Sen's work from 1990. We have a 14 year old girl arriving in the UK today, for hospital treatment after being shot in the head for standing out about her view that she deserves an education even though she is female. If constraints on your choices are so narrow that you have little chance of success when you challenge them, maybe better to settle for them and say you feel fine. The price of being a social pioneer is very high. Ask her when she recovers. I’ll confine myself to the gender/women’s rights issues you raise. Extrapolating any general point here regarding the gender issues you raise isn’t really possible. Why?
1. Quatar, Angloa, South Korea and Iran. Four countries with just so much in common for us to make generalised points about the status and condition of women. Not.
2. The idea that women’s bodies are a battleground and the idea that we are sex objects either covered or uncovered is as old as feminism. It is really unbelievable that this is new to anyone.
3. Any rigorous and convincing research about wellbeing would be focusing on the difference between perceived and real wellbeing, especially for marginalised groups. If you want me to refer to clever men who people take notice of as a reference for this point, see Amartya Sen’s work from 1990. We have a 14 year old girl arriving in the UK today, for hospital treatment after being shot in the head for standing out about her view that she deserves an education even though she is female. If constraints on your choices are so narrow that you have little chance of success when you challenge them, maybe better to settle for them and say you feel fine. The price of being a social pioneer is very high. Ask her when she recovers.

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